Giulietta Spider Veloces for sale

This car is for sale, I think I have it listed a few months ago. Contact the advertiser to see if it is still available at $92,500. The car is shown in the 750F Veloce Register at this page for more details.

Giulietta Spider Veloce 11669

Every once in a while you get a surprise when you are out looking for cars to add to the registers. The last time I saw this Spider Veloce (1495.04668) was just before Pat Braden (Alfa Bible author) passed away. This car was sitting in the back yard against a block wall looking like a derelict after a raid for parts. Someone bought it, restored it, and now up for sale. The car has been listed in the register with no information to go with it until now.  I have been in contact with the dealer for more information, but the current owner is on holidays until the end of August. Looking for some restoration pictures and to track down the history of where this car has been for the last 12 years. The dealer shows this information at this link from the drop down list.:

04668f

 

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Cars for Sale

Every so often I drill down through long lists of cars for sale to see if I can find some new cars to add to the registers. Most of the time I send emails to have nothing come back about the history, chassis/engine numbers etc. *frustrating*

Occasionally I get really lucky and stumble upon something really great and there are a couple of cars that are exceptional. I have seen some 6c1750 cars for sale, and a nice selection of 6c2500’s if someone was looking. My desire would be to put a 6c1750 sedan in my garage, but who wouldn’t!

I have to say this up front, I have no financial connection to any of the cars listed here, only wanting to help someone who is looking for a car. I do hope that if you buy the car you will share the information with me on the cars history. Also if you find a car you want listed on here, there is no charge, but it must be a true Veloce from the factory (serial numbers are required and a history is appreciated with photographs to show provenance).

Lets start the list off with a 1600 Spider Veloce race car…390611. It is currently listed on the AlfaBB for $90,000 with original parts to go with the car. So you can either race it or you can restore it for the road. Considering the values of the Giulia Veloce recently, you could remove the race equipment to help fund the restoration to put it back on the road, if that is what someone wanted to do. Then again you could race it and enjoy someones efforts to make it competitive. Here is what the ad says: Chassis 101.18.390611 Car is currently set up for vintage racing. It has successfully competed in the Monterey Historics twice, Wine Country Historics four times in addition to numerous other CSRG events. As currently configured Tinney 1600 small port head, carillo rods, megacycle cams, veloce headers, alloy flywheel etc. 5.12 diff, konis, panhard rod, 8 gallon fuel cell, Switters close ratio trans, Panasport wheels, full Lexan windshield in original posts. If the day comes the car can easily be returned to full street trim as all the original parts have been retained including, but not limited too, the original motor, Tinney rebuild, seats, gas tank, airbox, brakes, heater, wiper assembly etc. Asking $90K Picture to be posted here with ad shortly, more details and pics available to interested parties, thanks, Fred.” 

Spider Veloce 390611

There seems to be a plethora of Sprint Speciale cars on the market for which I can’t explain why there are so many, and so few Giulietta Spider Veloce’s recently. Even less are the Giulietta Sprint and Giulia Veloce’s. I guess if you see one you better grab them!

RM Auctions is selling a 1961 SS in Monterey next month with a estimate of $180,000 – $200,000 and the car came from France originally. No numbers and no response yet to my inquiry as to the chassis/engine numbers. The advertisement says, “According to Alfa Romeo factory files, this Giulietta Sprint Speciale left the Arese factory on November 27, 1961. The first owner purchased the car on January 29, 1962, in France, and it is recorded as being sold to the Regie Nationale Usines, Billancourt, France, which is, in fact, the Renault factory. Why they bought the Alfa is not known; however, it should be noted that the two companies had signed a joint-venture agreement in 1958, which, among other things, saw Alfa building a version of the Renault Dauphine and R8 in Italy. The Sprint Speciale eventually found its way to Holland, where it was restored. It was then sold to a gentleman in Spain, from whom the previous owner purchased it several years ago. He then brought it to the United States, where it was acquired by the current owner. SPRINT SPECIALE for sale link. 

Giulietta Sprint Specaile 177259

Gooding and Company has a “1966 Sprint Speciale” list for sale next month in Monterey (381349 and listed in my SS register). I sent them a query to see what the numbers are for this car, and so far no response. My question to them what was the derivation of the 1966 posting which we know never happened.  There is a rumor of one SS that was built from a left over body in 1966 for a customer, but I have no information about that (anyone know of this car?) This car according to my register was sold back in 2010 and I wonder where it has been all of this time?  Here is what they advertise, “An East Coast example from new, this Giulia Sprint Speciale was under the long-term care of the original owner for decades, passing into the collection of the second owner and then an Italian car collection in New York until 2010, when the consignor acquired it. History includes a showing at the 2001 Greenwich Concours d’Elegance in Connecticut. Since then, it has received mechanical maintenance and is accompanied by a dossier containing copies of an Alfa Romeo history, period road-test report, invoices, and service manual.” Sprint Speciale for sale link. This car is estimated to sell for $140,000 to $180,000.

Giulietta SS 381349

 Strada E Corsa in Holland has a white SS (380330) for sale on their website. Some of the details are listed here:

Production date:                September 17th  1963  Sold:                                     September 19th  1963  ( Louwman & Parqui, Holland)

 I noticed a rare magnesium air filter housing and a alloy Veloce style ‘split sump’ oil pan and Sprint Speciale alloy engine mounts to lower the engine. A fresh exhaust system is mounted under the car. in the Alfa Romeo book I wrote that this engine is from a 1600 Giulia from the same year but not specifically from this car.

The current owner bought the car 40 years ago with this engine fitted. The original colour was white with blue interior, which is very beautiful, and just like it is now. The car is still in hands of the same private owner for 40 years now! The owner use to run an Alfa Romeo garage for at least 40 years.

A honest and great car to enjoy on the open roads. For sale at € 78.000 euro.

380330a

 

This car comes with a hidden surprise under the dash that is unique to this particular car. contact Strada for more details.

 

I found this SS for sale that was a custom ordered car from the factory. The dealer is VHC,
140 Avenue de la Gare 74800 SAINT PIERRE EN FAUCIGNY FRANCE  Their advertisement says: Very original car restored by well known specialist.
Special order initially done for M BERTONE, but finally delivered at ALFA ROMEO LUGANO. (sourced by ASCD).
Chassis 551 with its 00120 original engine.
Only 3 swiss owners.
The only model built with 2600 electric windows, door handles and door opening quaterlights.
Original amarante body color, with wonderful light grey / bordeaux interior.
CONCOURS WINNER CONDITIONS
Many detailed photos on ask.
A strong investment.
Can be seen on our workshop near GENEVA.

 

Speciale Ordered SS by Mrs. Bertone 10120.00551

As Porky Pig used to say at the end, “Thats all foks!” Let me know if you buy one of these!

 

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Coppa D’Oro Event in Italy

I get all kinds of automotive news that crosses my email basket. VeloceToday hit and there was a link to the Coppa D’Oro event in Italy that lasts 3 days. This isn’t for anyone that has a light wallet, as the cost is 3,100 Euros for the three days including meals and lodging. Maybe you get lucky and get to drive or ride with someone that has a nice fancy car like a 6c2500 competizione, or a 2000 Sportiva.
In this case, I am looking for this entry to add to the SS register…

No. 45 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Speciale 1961 driver/co-driver Kinzer/Kinzer AUT/AUT

Sprint Speciale on the Coppa D’Oro 2014

Maybe they will contact me with information on their car!

Have a great day…go drive an Alfa!

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Spider Wheels

The wheels go around and around and we really don’t pay much attention to them unless they fail, dirty or putting new tires on them. The wheel functions quite well if we treat it right.

On the Alfa’s for the period of our cars, there were 4 styles…Borrani, Fergat, Campagnolo  and Amadori. These wheels are very rare and if you come across a set they are worth having for nothing else than nostalgia.

The Amadori were used on the very early 750 cars and were prone to cracking.  That is probably why you hardly ever see a Amadori wheel.

Later Fergats were switched in and followed up by Borrani. However the Fergats were prone to cracking the center hubs where the lug nuts were attached and people started to switch them out for Borrani’s. The cracks radiated from the lug nut holes, and there were cracks in the weld that held the spider to the rim. I knew of some people rewelding the spider to the rims as the cracks were that obvious.

The Borrani’s would bend and at least you could drive on wobbly rims.

Greig Smith says, ‘my reference books & every period picture of an SZ shows the cars wore the Borrani “Records” with the steel centre & aluminium rim, riveted together.” These cars also had the magnesium sand cast wheels which were light and strong for the torsional loads imposed on them. New Campagnolo rims are available that are just like the originals in cast aluminum, but with a smoother finish and built to the new wheel standards.

Real magnesium rims are exceptionally light but if they ever catch on fire you can not put them out. Water just adds to the problems. As far as I know they cannot be repaired. (?)

There is a myth floating around that certain cars came with Fergats and some with Borrani. The myth is just that…a myth. Cars came off the assembly line with both. Just like engines, depending upon what was in the bin for the next car is what was put on.

How do you tell them apart? The Fergats were more elliptically round and the Borrani’s had a bit of a wide spot in the middle of the arc. The later 105 wheels had round holes if you need a reference.

The early Fergats had studs on the inside of the rim that were threaded. This was the poor mans way of balancing a wheel with weights. You found a flat weight with a hole in the middle. You put it on and screwed it down with a nut and lock washer.

The Veloce rims also had a special fixture that went over the top of the valve stem that held it in place so it wouldn’t come away from the rim at speed. This little item  was a metal cap, cut so it sat on the rim ridge, and had a special fixing nut that went over the stem. This compressed the cap to the rim and secured the stem. Then a valve stem cap went over that. I haven’t seen any of these in decades. Most were tossed when the first set of tires were put on the car.

My 1600 Veloce came with Fergats and they were cracked. My mentor had a good set of “chromed” Borrani’s that we put on the car. It went well with the black lacquer paint on the car. Now they are rusty and pitted. I wonder where I can get them rechromed here in California? Chromed rims were an option at the dealers as I have seen several sets over the years. “The chrome wheels seem to have been a Hoffman embellishment, along with chromed cam cover nuts and hammer-tone painted cam covers on the Giulia’s. The reason the hub cap clips seem different is because they are tempered spring steel & if put through the chroming process, the heat causes them to loose their temper & the hubcaps fall off, hence they need to be removed & replaced when chroming wheels.”  

The clips are held on to the rim with rivets. You have to drill them out, get new clips if you can, and have someone rivet the new ones back on. Pop rivets are not strong enough to hold the clip so that the hub cap stays on. You pay a fortune for hub caps you might as well be sure they stay on when you go around a corner.

The sizes of the rims came in 4.5″, 5″, 5.5″ and 6″ widths. A post on the AlfaBB is, “Parts book doesn’t mention the special construction of the SZ wheels, only that they are 4 1/2 and made by Borrani rather than 4 1/4 made by either Fergat or Borrani.” 

Most of the tires were 155×15 that sat on a 5.5″ rim. You can still get the 15″ tires from Vederstein or from Volkswagen specialty houses that cater to restorations that want that period correct tire. Places like Cooker make reproduction tires with a modern carcass that fit well. Pirelli makes about 2500 vintage tires a year and if you are not on the waiting list you just are that much further down the waiting period to get them.

There seems to be an on going debate about the color of the steel rim used on Giulietta’s and Giulia’s. I have a great article on my Veloce Register website under paint codes that settles the question I feel in a good lengthy discussion. Rim Paint

I know some powder coat their wheels. It looks good and lasts a long time.

Borrani stickers for your wheels are available but they come in different colors depending upon the period you are putting them on. See this page on Borrani history and then you will either know it all or be that much more confused. Borrani History page.

You can also find CMR on a wheel. This is the company that bought out Borrani some years ago. Here is a pictorial of decals for wheels and other decals for your Alfa remade by Bill Gillham of Oregon. These decals you will find on most restorations today as replacements for the silk screening. Decals

Lastly lets talk lug nuts. There are left and right hand lug nuts on your Alfa if it is made before 1972. That is the year they switched to having all one twist on the car. You can tell a reverse left hand pitch nut as it has a mark in the center of the ridge between the flat lands on the nut. The early cars had brass nuts. You can polish them up on a buffing wheel and them clear coat them to keep that finish. Torque…no more than 80 lbs. Otherwise you will bend the rim! I have seen ruined wheels when some jockey on the air gun ran the nuts down tight flatting the holes. Just remember, left goes on the left and right goes on the right. If you have the front hubs mixed up now you know why.

I think I just ran out of air and feeling a bit run down. *wobble wobble wobble*

 

 

 

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Somewhere in Italy

For those of you that follow my blog on a regular basis  you know that my wife and I are on a one month vacation in Italy. It was time to decompress from work, college and the daily grind of the classroom. My wife planned the whole trip so long as I got in some of the things I wanted to do. That part included going to Colorno for the hydroplane boat races. That is a forthcoming post.

We overnighted in a town on the way to Venice. My wife and I went out this afternoon to discover the town for dinner. Sometimes you get lost and discover things you didn’t know about by accident. That happened to us in Rome where we found he Leonardo Di Vinci Museum. Worth seeing! Some artisans created his inventions from his notes that are working models for some of them. Did you know he invented the ball bearing!

Here I go off on a tangent. There is an Alfa dealer ahead of us and I suggest we stroll in and look at the new Giulietta’s and MiTo’s. I give my best Italian pleasantries and find out there is someone that speaks pretty good English. Sitting on the floor is a new Giulietta sedan with the 4C 1750 turbo in flat silver paint. This is a new release car just in the last month by Alfa Romeo and this car has the introductory paint color. I partake of the car checking out all of the features. All over Italy we have been seeing MiTo’s ( 2 door) and the Giulietta (4 door) as they are very popular. I have ridden in both and was impressed with the fit and finish. The MiTo rides nice and comfortable. We can’t get these cars and it is a shame as they are that good of a car I know it would sell well.

rome1-38

Roberto and I both owners of 1600 Spider Veloce's

Roberto and I both owners of 1600 Spider Veloce’s next to his MiTo

After talking for a while to the person in English I mention that I have 4 Alfa’s including a 1600 Spider Veloce. My wife and I were escorted to a warehouse near the dealership where the owner proceeded to show us the private collection of cars. There was an original Giulietta sedan, a beautiful Duetto but just around the corner was an all original Sprint Speciale in red. I wanted to open the hood but the cable wasn’t cooperating so I had to forego getting the numbers for the register.

We talk for a few minutes and then head back upstairs where I collected a couple of brochures, and bid ourselves a goodbye that I really wanted to last longer. I made a contact and will be emailing in the future to secure those valuable numbers.

All afternoon I kept thinking of the chance encounter of mentioning that I have a 1600 Veloce Spider and we were shown a private collection of cars that was amazing. You never know who you will run in to when you talk cars.

The next blog will be about the Veloce powered boat engines at Colorno and the uniqueness of just how impressive they are on water. Stay tuned!!

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Why Do We Save the Impossible

This is one of those questions that only the person that is working on a project can answer. I have been around Alfa Romeo cars since 1970. My car was only 5 years old at the time and had already been through 4 owners. On top of that, it had been wrecked at some point in time. What is amazing is who ever did the body work was a master craftman. On the right rear panel only discovered when the paint and primer had been removed, was discovered a panel that had a hole in it. The hole is still there in the middle, and around the hole the metal is very thin like it had been worked out on a planishing table. Around the panel is a weld mark that was finished so well that it almost looks like it was factory. The metal is so smooth it is almost impossible o find any hammer marks.

My suspicions are that sometime in Germany where the car was taken delivery, the first or second owner might have over driven the car at some point, hit something to
dent that panel. Why Germany? Old world skills are demonstrated in this panel of cutting out the part and working out the metal to prefection.

Currently on the AlfaBB is a master metal worker restoring a Sprint Speciale that we would have thrown away years ago. Bernard is what I would consider to be one of
but a handful of people that I know of that can recreate metal like it was new. The car is in pieces and all of the rust from the “tin worm” has been removed. There are
about a handful of people who can recreate a car by remaking panels.

Years ago we never thought about saving cars. We just stripped out a wreck, rusty peice of junk and saved the parts for a future project. I tossed away a rusty Super in the
late 1970s and usd the shell for a retaining wall on the river back on the back of a property. Now look at where Super values are headed. The rust was so bad in the rockers and
floorboards the car wasn’t worth messing with.

When you think of the mindset of the factoy in the times that the cars were built, they were making a car that could go 10, 15, or even 20 years down the proverbial “road”.
Here we are 50 and 60 years later restoring cars to like new standards. Some of the projects that have come across various websites have been astoundingly recreated.

Why not just toss the car into the metal recycler? Why go to the expense and labor intensive effort to put the car back on the road. Some of us do it for the love and
labor of recreating a “work of art” and appreciate the final effort. Some spend the money to have someone else do the work, because the car is valuable. The value of a Sprint
Speciale is going up so high that you can make some profit on a car at auction. We couldn’t do that until about 5 or 10 years ago. Spider Veloce’s, Sprint Veloce’s are not
far behind.

Race cars have always had value to restore becasue of th documentation it was raced in some famous race or that some driver had their hands on the wheel. Those cars are
rare to begin with and worth he effort to put back to new conditon. Street cars never enjoyed this luxury until about a decade or more ago.

Part of all this circles around people who remake panels and stampings of metal that the metal worker can cut out and weld back in. There is one company that makes repro
parts that some say isn’t worth bothering with becasue it takes to much effort to make the part fit. Thre are a couple of sources in Europe that are turning out metal that loks
to be factory stampings. The supply of NOS metal is drying up, and rarely do we see NOS panels availale. I have only recently seen a couple of NOS nose panels come to the market
for spiders. There is sources in Ital/Germany where panels are being remade of excellent quality.

Some parts are have been available for some time like rubber, windshields, and upholstery as these are those wear and tear items that need replacing.

Step back with me to around 1991. I was working in southern California at a car dealer as a line mechanic. Someone came to my bay and said thre was a guy out front with a Alfa
Romeo converible. Naurally, I was curious about what the guy was talking about. Someone had a red Giulietta spider that was in great condition after having been restored.
What caught my attention was the floormats. Now, that doesn’t seem to be a big deal now, but back at that time the mats had been not available. We say they were made
of “unobtainium” I asked where he got them. His reply was a company caled “ReOriginals” out of Houston Texas. ( a future blog). Upon further investigation ReOriginals was
tapping into a source of NOS (new old stock) of parts that were in Italy and helping people restore cars. This was like the trickle that started the stream of what we
have today in restoration parts. There was also Alfa Ricambi in San Fernando, as well as Centerline that were selling NOS parts from sources in Italy. ( a couple more
blogs) Some things were just dreams that people needed to make complete cars.

My close friend Dan had been stripping cars for pars and had the vision to save them for the future. Now he has a treasure chest of parts for the cars he is restoring. I
was forturate enough to get from Alfa Romeo ARI El Segundow a pile of NOS parts before they were gone. There is in my stash of parts som NOS in paper factory wrapping stainless eyebrows for my
Veloce as well as other parts. Why? Becasue I knew one day that they would not be available and to restore my Velose would require those parts.

Why do we save the impossible? You could say that we have a vision for the future. These cars are now valuable monetarily, but also valueable that they only built but a
few thousand cars ( less than 6000 for all Veloces) Look at the Veloce Regiters to get a sense of just haow many are left. All total I would guess about 20%. There are alot of
cars out there that have been found, I just can’t get the documentation to verify the car for the registers. (my biggest frustration is not getting chassis and engine numbers)

Parts and metal are now moe available than they have ever been. Some of the suppliers were the original source for the parts when Alfa Romeo contracted with back
when the car was built. It doesn’t get any better than that. The incentiv is that there is a market for recreations. Cars we tossed years ago are being resurrected and put
on the road and opening a new market for people willing to sell them at auction. This can only drive up the value of what we currently have and insure that more cars will b
be saved for posterity.

Have I answered the question posed at the beginning? Probably not, but it does make for interesting ponderings and lively discussions.

The next questions are: Do we save them as museum peices (trailer queens) or just get them out and drive them like there is no tomorrow? One way to answer that isto look at
what the Alfa Romeo Museo Storico does with their cars. 🙂

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ARI El Segundo…what ever happened to them?

Alfa Romeo Incorporated (ARI) in El Segundo California used to be where cars, parts and factory service were performed for the west coast. The address used to be 215 S. El Segundo Boulevard, El Segundo CA. (street view).

For those of us that lived even remotely close (100 miles) it was worth it for us to make the drive down to ARI to do our parts business. You could go in the back door which was the opening to the shop area. You went up to the parts counter, and Tom (Bonser?) would show up and ask for your order. He would write it all down and disappear. A short time later he would show up with the parts in hand if they were in stock. Now that is what we called “factory direct” service. Over time the dealers were crying “foul” as they were losing business because it was convenient to drive over to ARI and get parts, rather than order them through the dealer. Then you had to wait a week for the order to get sent in on a certain order day and then wait a week for the parts to show up. The last item I bought there in 1971 was a new 1600 original foam dash board for my freshly repainted spider veloce. (It has since disappeared into dust.)

A story circulated around that Tom was found out in the desert dead. It was said the death was suspicious. You couldn’t have met a better person.

DPeterson said, “I remember that I was required to submit written orders for our dealership.  Calling in an order incurred a 16% handling fee.  No idea why I remember that, or how they came to that number, but it compares in an interesting way to the modern automotive idiom of giving brilliant service to their car owners, particularly for “car-broken-down” orders, in order to earn a future car sale.”

ARI had a full service shop where if you wanted  you could take your car in for service. They generally did work on the car that was strictly warranty work. I took my 71 GTV into them as my injection pump went bad. They removed the pump, took it into their clean room and did some work on it. Inside the clean room was a place where they had a fuel injection station where they could tune your injection pump back to factory specifications. I was in and out the same day.

JohnW said, “I purchased parts from ARI, Inc. for my 1957 Spider and 1961 Sprint Veloce until they quit selling to the public. I have all of my receipts from ARI. I used to buy parts from Tom at ARI. I had them rebuild my SV front suspension and differential. The differential housing and ring and pinion were replaced… I truly miss buying from ARI, Inc. The people were just great and now we cannot purchased any new Alfas. I hope that Alfa Romeo returns to the US car market.” 

The man in charge of the shop I think was Kurt Heineman (?). I found him a few years later working for I believe BMW. I had owned for a while one of the original AR service vans, a Romeo 2 front wheel drive. There was a rumor going around in certain circles that Kurt had some spare parts for the van. When I met up with him I was two weeks to late as he had cleaned out his garage of all the spare parts to the dump.

Mario Silvi (?) I believe was the man in the PR dept. I remember going in to his office in 1971 to receive a gift from him, which I still have, of a copy of Luigi Fusi’s Alfa Romeo dal 1910. It was and has been one of the best books I have owned. I will write another story in the future of how this book took me to Italy to meet Cav. Luigi Fusi. Mario later went to work for the Italian consulate in Los Angeles.

When word that ARI was closing we were all wondering what we were going to do for parts as now they would be coming from the east coast and taking longer to get them. JohnW says, “I was told that when ARI, Inc. closed its doors in El Segundo many of the parts went to the salvage yard. The parts had been depreciated and could not be sold according to what I heard. I heard that new 6C2500 engine was sent to the salvage yard. I do not think that all of the parts were scrapped because I bought parts from Willy Mueller in Huntington Park that were from ARI, Inc. He had 1900, 2000 (102) and 2600 parts that came from ARI, Inc. I wanted to know if other parts went to other people, but he did not say anything. I think that some of the ARI, Inc. parts were sold to other parties, but that is pure speculation.

The rumor mill was alive and well with stories of what happened to the parts. The parts were a total write off for Alfa Romeo. Rather than sell them to the public, collectors or returned to Italy, the parts were thrown away. Several large roll off containers were said to have been dropped at the back door and the parts department was cleared of all parts. It still staggers my imagination to speculate what was thrown away into the land fill. Maybe someone can fill in the blanks as to what really happened. 

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